Shrieking Gazelles

[Helipixman]

While searching the web I came across photos of two unknown Gazelle helis. The first picture is not very clear but the test reg looks like F-Z??? and the second photo shows F-WQGY in the window. I think both are connected to Aero Tec, France.

Anyone know their construction no's or who they are for?


F-Z???


F-WQGY

Helipixman

[Savoia]

Anyone know their construction no's or who they are for?

Hopefully Zis can help with the construction numbers. The bottom cab looks as though she is a Chinese Gaz, for they tend to wear that colour scheme.



Chinese Gazelle LH 90304


LH 94306

[Savoia]

A Montenegrin in Slovenia!



SA341H Soko Gazelle (Partizan) 12657 (cn 025) as seen over Cerklje in Slovenia on 31st May 2015 (Photo: Soos Jozsef)

[Rotorspot]

While searching the web I came across photos of two unknown Gazelle helis. The first picture is not very clear but the test reg looks like F-Z??? and the second photo shows F-WQGY in the window. I think both are connected to Aero Tec, France.

Anyone know their construction no's or who they are for?

Helipixman

F-WQGY indeed looks like a Chinese one, the majority of which have been withdrawn from use. Do you have any idea about the date of that picture?

Jos

[Helipixman]

F-WQGY indeed looks like a Chinese one, the majority of which have been withdrawn from use. Do you have any idea about the date of that picture?

Jos

Sorry have no idea of date or location, all I know its from the Aerotec Group website

Helipixman

[md600driver]

Does anyone happen to know how many 342 stretched gazelles there are?

[Savoia]

Ciao Steve!

Back on page 4 Zis posted a list of what he believed to be the currently existing stretched versions. I don't know how many of these are 342's (at present) but Zis has indicated in a message to me that there were a total of 12 stretched 342's which were produced.



SA341D G-EZZL (cn 1104) as seen at Sywell Aerodrome on 30th May 2015 (Photo: Brian Nichols)


SA341G YU-HMC (cn 1136) as seen at Sywell Aerodrome on 30th May 2015 (Photo: Brian Nichols)

This aircraft was formerly 'Citizen Kane' (aka G-KANE).

[Savoia]

Do you remember the lovely photo issued by Turbomeca in December last year (see page 24) celebrating the first flight of the Arriel engine? Well here is another shot taken from that same occasion:


Aérospatiale's SA341 Gazelle F-ZWRL as seen testing Turbomeca's Arriel turbine for the first time on 7th December 1974 from Turbomeca’s flight test center at Pau Pyrénées Airport (Photo: Safran/Turbomeca)

[Rotorspot]

Sorry have no idea of date or location, all I know its from the Aerotec Group website.

Helipixman

Thanks, I have found it now. The Aerotec website states:

Since the EUROCOPTER agreement in 2008, AEROTEC GROUP puts it's know how into action and executes complete overhaul on military Gazelle helicopters SA341 and SA342.

On another page they show that China is one of their customer countries. So, maybe this was an overhaul of a Chinese Gazelle, being test flown as F-WQGY.

Rotorspot

[Savoia]

Well done Jos, some nice investigative work there!

Stretched 342's


Gendarmerie Royale (Royal Moroccan Police) SA342L CN-AID (cn 1360) as seen at Dax in France on 15th May 2004
(Photo: Dino van Doorn)

Morocco are probably the largest operator of stretched 342's. Question is .. when they eventually upgrade to some shiny new Dauphins for their VIP transport duties .. who will buy the 342's? This could be a call for some 'early strategic planning' on the part of the Crabtree stable!



For a list of Moroccan Gazelle construction numbers, see here.

[Savoia]

Staying with the stretched Gazelles .. the photographer (Mick) comments that this craft was 'spotlessly clean' when he photographed her.


SA341G(S) YU-HWF (cn 1407) as seen at Denham Aerodrome on 5th June 2015 (Photo: Mick Bajcar)

Previously G-EHUP.

[xbdt]

SA342L CN-AID (cn 1360)

Are you sure it is a 342L? I think it is a 342J

[Zishelix]

Are you sure it is a 342L? I think it is a 342J

Beside 24 "classic" military SA342L machines, Morocco also obtained 6 stretched Gazelles for their Police forces (Royal Gendarmerie), marked also as 342L (as could be noted on their tail fins) but in fact finished up as 342J and used mainly for VIP transport.

[Savoia]

Well as Zis says, this was the designation painted on the aircraft, but I also drew reference from the production list linked at the bottom of the post (which also describes the aircraft as an 'L' model) and which is the same in Jos' list on Rotorspot.

My understanding was that the 'J' designation was for civilian aircraft/operators, while the 'L' was for military/para-military and I believe that the Gendarmerie Royale is para-military? But maybe there are some other distinctions between the 'J' and the 'L'?

[Zishelix]

...maybe there are some other distinctions between the 'J' and the 'L'?

Baggage compartment for instance...

[md600driver]

Apart from the baggage door on the 342J, there is one main difference in that the 342L and 342L1 do not have type data certificates and are for governmental use. You cannott register a 342L for civil use on a certificate of airworthiness, but only a permit to fly, experimental or Annex 11.

[Zishelix]

Excuse my ignorance, but I am wondering what's so "seriously incompatible" on the L & L1 models which makes them impossible to be converted into civil machines .. these stretched Moroccan birds especially!

[xbdt]

There is no physical difference in these airframes except the luggage compartment door for the 342J version. All other versions are not equipped with the door. The only difference are some small instrument panel changes, equipment/furnishings etc. and of course the data plate.

EASA issued a type certificate for the 341G equipped with Astazou IIIA engine and 342J equipped with Astazou 14H only. All other airframe or engine variants are NOT covered by this certificate.

Also, ONLY Gazelles built by Aerospatiale are covered by this certificate, ie. NO Westland and NO Soko built aircraft! These aircraft (as Steve mentioned) might be flown in specific countries under other categories like permit to fly, experimental, Annex II, exhibition category and so on.

[Zishelix]

So, I'm just "thinking out loud" - type certification is considerably expensive, the Gazelle is out of production, and the licence holder has no interest in demobilising them .. so I guess we shouldn't expect to see many 342K, L, L1 & M in civil use?

[Rotorspot]

So, I'm just "thinking out loud" - type certification is considerably expensive, the Gazelle is out of production, and the licence holder has no interest in demobilising them .. so I guess we shouldn't expect to see many 342K, L, L1 & M in civil use?

I think this may also have to do with the way the military operate and maintain their aircraft/helicopters, which is not in line with civil standards. When you put such a machine onto the civil aircraft register in the condition it is in, you may be at risk just because of that. Therefore you will notice in the Type Certificates that those military ones are explicitly excluded.

Cheers,
Jos

[Zishelix]

This means the military maintenance system is insufficient and potentially hazardous! I wouldn't know for other countries, but I'll rather fly any of our military aircraft than some of the privately owned ones.

[Helipixman]

SA342L's on the Civil Register

So how many SA342L have made it onto a civil register?

I can only think of a few:

• c/n 1787 4X-BHH > HA-LFG > ZU-RHH (ex-Syrian and Israeli AF)
• c/n 1854 HA-LFQ which was ex-Irish Air Corps 241 and ex-Crabtree

plus three with the Serbian Police

• c/n 1830 YU-HEC
• c/n 1847 YU-HED
• c/n 1926 YU-HEB all ex-Iraqi

Can anyone think of anymore?

Helipixman

[Rotorspot]

This means the military maintenance system is insufficient and potentially hazardous! I wouldn't know for other countries, but I'll rather fly any of our military aircraft than some of the privately owned ones.

No, what I am saying is that the military system is not comparable to civil standards. When you buy a second-hand car, you want to see its history. When you buy a second-hand military aircraft, they may not be willing to give you that information, because it may be classified. On the other hand, the military use their aircraft in a different way than the civil operator does (number of flight hours, number of landings, harshness of manoeuvres, etc). So the aircraft may have worn out more than you would expect based on its number of flight hours alone. That is what makes them potentially more dangerous. A nice example were the Dutch military BO105s (a civil design, used by the military). After some years they discovered cracks in the tailboom, which were not apparent on civil BO105s. It turned out that the miltary made far more landings per flight hour, a feat which the helicopter had not been designed for.

Cheers, Jos.

[Zishelix]

Jos, I understand your point, and thanks for nice example!

Personally I believe that cracks in the fuselage means only one thing .. inappropriate handling and which could and should be identified in both military and civilian operations. All that I would say is that cracks can also appear and which are not as a result of inappropriate handling. Bell LongRanger, AW139, Westland Lynx and several others I can think of which had these problems as an initial design flaw.

As you mention in your initial comments, this subject depends 100% on the country. You could have a Gazelle with 15,000 hrs which is ex-UK MoD and be in near 'perfect' condition having been well maintained all its life, and you could have a machine from some other Air Force with just few K hrs and which is a potential 'death trap' because of insuficient maintenance - and the same applies to civilian operations according to the standards of the local aviation authority.

---

Helipixman, I think both RA-0608G and RA-1214K are licencly built (Soko's) SA.342L. Also, N342GZ is basically an SA.342M.

[Zishelix]

A nice nostalgia image of SA.341G D-HARI s/n 1019 at Cairo International Airport in Aug 19th, 1980 (Photo: Mike Shakocius)



See more of D-HARI on page 11.

[Savoia]

Ah .. reattaching the head out on the apron in the blazing sun, with the aid of a forklift, and with a pair of Daks in the background .. brings back memories from my African adventures of the same decade.

Presumably she was also 'offshoring' as with the shots from Central America on page 11?

Seeing D-HARI reminds me of 'Forwuns' HB-ZEU (cn 1111). The last photo we have of her (see page 9) is on board a truck in Germany in 2013 - does anyone happen to know what has actually happened to her?

[md600driver]

SA342L's on the Civil Register

So how many SA342L have made it onto a civil register?

I can only think of a few:

• c/n 1787 4X-BHH > HA-LFG > ZU-RHH (ex-Syrian and Israeli AF)
• c/n 1854 HA-LFQ which was ex-Irish Air Corps 241 and ex-Crabtree

plus three with the Serbian Police

• c/n 1830 YU-HEC
• c/n 1847 YU-HED
• c/n 1926 YU-HEB all ex-Iraqi

Can anyone think of anymore?

Helipixman

Hi,

I may have confused some, for I actually put the above two 342L's, 1787 and 1854, (both ex-Crabtree) on the civil register - but they did not have a Type Data Certificate and were instead were put on an Annex II permit, which is similar to the UK's Permit to Fly, as used for privately owned ex-MoD Gazelles. In the US ex-military Gazelles fly under the Experimental Category and other countries have different rules and names for what is effectively the same thing, a permit allowing for private use only.

I believe we will see plenty of 342 L's, L1's, K's and M's which will end up on civil registers, but they won't be certified civilian aircraft, but will instead fly on permits and similar.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[Savoia]

I am sure you are right Steve.

The only 'hurdle' would have been if someone had wanted to operate such aircraft for public transport but, as we know, there are now very few Gazelles remaining in this category and .. one of the companies which does operate Gazelles for charter, the Helicopter Service of the Republic of Srpska, happens to use ex-mil cabs!

And Srpska isn't the only anomaly, because there is an ex-UK MoD Gaz being used Stateside for film work but, perhaps the FAA have issued an exemption for this, maybe by accepting that such aircraft can be used for 'aerial work'.

N624EL

XB, do you have any idea where this may have been filmed?




SA342L HA-LFH (cn 1775) as seen at Norwich International Airport on 28th June 2015

[Rotorspot]

Seeing D-HARI reminds me of 'Forwuns' HB-ZEU (cn 1111). The last photo we have of her (see page 9) is on board a truck in Germany in 2013 - does anyone happen to know what has actually happened to her?

HB-ZEU is still registered as such.

Operator: EAFM Verein für Exotic and Antique Flying Machines, Mühlebühlstrasse 23, CH-8620 Wetzikon.
Owner: Graf, Ulrich, Fabrikstrasse 14, CH-8806 Bäch.

Cheers,
Jos.

[md600driver]

SA342L HA-LFH (cn 1775)

Just being picky, but HA-LFH is a 342'J' and not an 'L'.